What Makes a Book a Book? with Author/Illustrator Jarrett Lerner

Listen HERE

Inspired by Jarrett's Graphic Novel Crash Course workshop that I took in the summer, I invited him to come on my podcast to extend that learning and experience with you.

In this episode  we talked about  the value and importance of exposing children to a range  of books to enhance their learning and enjoyment of literacy. I shared a very honest reflection of what I used to believe about graphic novels and where I've reached and why.

“I want to convince kids who maybe aren't fully convinced yet, that reading can be a blast. And that it can also be something very positive and worthwhile to have in your life. For entertainment, and also for edification, for information for guidance, for comfort.”

Author-illustrator Jarrett Lerner is the award-winning creator of the EngiNerds series of Middle Grade novels, the Geeger the Robot series of early chapter books, the activity books Give This Book a Title and Give This Book a Cover, and The Hunger Heroes series of graphic novel chapter books.

He can be found at jarrettlerner.com and on Twitter and Instagram at @Jarrett_Lerner.

He lives with his wife and daughters in Massachusetts.

--------------------

Note: The transcript below may not be exactly the same as the podcast and has not been edited for accuracy

#22 RRC

Tara Gratto  00:01

Hello and welcome. I'm Tara the founder of raising resilient children. I support parents with the tools and skills they need to become the parent they want to be. Using my signature framework, the language of kindness and parent clues for problem solving. I teach you ways to make parenting easier, while fostering connection and building essential life skills for resiliency. As a longtime educator, former preschool owner and parent, I have been working with parents and children for over 20 years. From this experience, I know there is no cookie cutter approach to parenting and information can be overwhelming. Let's tackle some of this by having some important conversations and digging into some different topics. Oh, hello, today I have a special guest joining me to talk about graphic novels and the importance of sort of comic books and things like that. Jarrett Lerner is an author and an illustrator. He's also an advocate for a lot of things. And one of the things I'm going to start by asking him is sort of what what you're passionate about what you think is important in this space. And then I'm going to share a story to start our conversation. So first, if you want to tell us a little bit about a couple of the books you've written and some things you're passionate about. That'd be amazing.

01:16

Yeah, well, thank you. First of all, for having me. I make a lot of different kinds of books, for all different kinds of kids. But I think the overarching theme of my work, if you wanted to sort of get all the books under one umbrella would be that I want to convince kids who maybe aren't fully convinced yet that reading can be a blast, and that it can also be something very positive and worthwhile to have in your life, for entertainment, and also for edification, for information for guidance for comfort. So I guess that's the overarching theme, whether I'm writing a novel making a graphic novel, making an early reader making more young adult T type novel. So yeah,

Tara Gratto  02:14

amazing. I love that. And I actually took a course from you this summer. That's how I was like, I have to have him on my podcast, as you were so passionate. I was I took a course on like, how do you write graphic novels? Like, what's the format, and I've been working on my own project with a friend who's a comic book illustrator. And so it was, I needed that other piece, because I'm very academic, I have a background in education, and thinking that this is the story I'm going to share. So over 20 years ago, I don't, I no longer teach in the classroom, I work with parents now. But when I taught in the classroom, I always let kids during DEAR, right drop everything and read, read comic books, but I'm gonna tell you straight up in the back of my mind, I was like, that's not a real book. That's fine. I want to get them. I want to get them interested in reading. But my goal wasn't to see value in the comic book. My goal was to get them into what I considered a real book, right. So that's kind of air quoted that which you can't see on a podcast, but that I very much was where I was. And then fast forward, my children are middle school. So my, my children showed me that graphic novels and comics are a whole different thing than what I saw them as, as a bit of a strict educator, literacy, I've always picked your books have always been super important to me. I read them to all ages and stages, but I didn't apply that same thing to comic books and graphic novels until about, I guess, 10 or 12 years ago, 1012 years ago. And I've seen something so sort of profound. And you shared on Instagram a couple weeks ago, an image, right? And you said graphic novels are real books. And I shared that to my stories. And I said, Hey, followers community here, what do you think? And I was shocked, because I thought things had changed a lot more. I thought I was kind of this my new way of thinking was everyone's thinking. And it was not it was 60%. And it hovered at 5050. For the longest time of, of yes, they're real books, and no, they're not. And then we finished off. And it was a it was a well responded survey at 60%. Think it's a real book and 40% don't. So one of the things that was so amazing about the workshop I took from you is how passionate you are, and all the things that you shared about what a graphic novel does all the sort of visual components. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that stuff, the sort of what do graphic novels do? What makes them real books?

04:51

Yeah, so thank you for that setup and being so honest about that. Yeah, so I think I think the resistance to graphic novels comes from a lot of sources. And I think the two that I sort of, I guess focus on the most is a lack of people just being acquainted with them, especially newer ones. Like, I think if a lot of these people who are resistant to them or still look down on them, or put them in some sort of hierarchy below, text, Facebook's, I think if they gave some of the graphic novels that are coming out today, or even the past five or 10 years, in children's literature, if they gave him the time of day, if they really sat down and and gave it a thorough look, I think they would change their mind. And the other thing is, I think, our education system and the way we teach kids sort of prioritizes, the verbal language, the verbal literacy, we sort of start with visual stuff when kids are young. And then we almost like, we almost use it as a crutch. And we're like, Okay, we're gonna wean you off of needing pictures, we're gonna we wean you off of needing to express yourself and share yourself, visually, you know, like, you know, some classrooms will have like, a poster up, and it will have a certain character, even just smiley faces showing different expressions, and kids will use those to identify the moods they're in or something. But we see that as like, a baby is sort of thing. So we prioritize the verbal literacy, to the detriment of visual literacy. And I just think that so many kids, and so many people who have who have, sadly lost it, so many adults, are visually literate, and visually fluent, and more comfortable. In that language, they're more comfortable with pictures expressing themselves visually. That's the way our brains work, you know, our brains, when we're thinking, we don't just have strands of text filtering through our brain. We see pictures, and we think of words, we process the world dually, you know, with those two languages, and I think we do kids, and everyone a disservice, by sort of weaning them off that visual language and seeing it as a crutch. So when you've got a kid who is more tuned into that visual language, you know, it's their first way of interacting with the world, it's their first way of expressing themselves and grasping things. It's this universal, most fundamental, primitive language. So when you give kids a graphic novel, and they're closer to that, and they use that more, and they're more connected to that language, there, they're seeing something that's not less, that's not easier, or less complicated than a book just with text, they are seeing a story being told in two languages simultaneously. And they're sort of reading the verbal language, they're reading the visual language. And for that kid, and for so many kids, rather than being you know, candy, while a textbook is broccoli, it's actually great compared Yeah, a lot of people talk about that. They say, you know, this is a dessert book, you have to have, you know, like a vegetable and protein book. Which gets into all sorts of other issues that I'm passionate about, about how we deal with our kids with that. Stay on topic, it's, it's just an inaccurate idea. And really, kids are having these incredibly rich and complicated and rewarding and stimulating reading experiences, because they're being spoken to. in two languages. It's, you know, it's almost like a kid who has, who's bilingual and totally fluent. It's almost like, there if you were to tell a story using both of those languages, and their nuances of meaning and meaning making, to sort of engage them in a in a deeper, broader, more intense experience. And, you know, often another thing when you talk about that is kids often reread graphic novels. Oh, like a lot. Yeah. And the reason is, because they're getting there, they're tapping into different parts of the story, like they might read for the dialogue and stuff. They might, they might focus more on one aspect or another, and they might move back and forth throughout their reading experiences, but going back It's like there's different languages being spoken. And there's so much for them to sort of read in there. And that's why I think a lot of kids reread them. And it's not just because it's easy and comfortable. And it's like, it's not the equivalent of them, you know, having free reign in the kitchen and just eating candy for every meal, you know, right, they're getting some nutrients and something that's speaking to them. So yeah, that's it, that's a big thing. And when you sort of, you know, we can't do it on a podcast, but in that course that you talked about, I showed just an example page of just a six panel comic, was just a character's expressions changing, and some sound effects and things and tried to pick apart how rich and how much was going on. And, you know, you times that by you compound, that by putting pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of graphic novel together, it's really such a complicated network of meaning making, that they're that they're, you know, sort of sinking down into. Yeah.

Tara Gratto  11:08

I mean, I think you made a really good point. And I think when people, I think, think about graphic novels, they've come so far, like picture books, right? Everything is like the stuff that's coming out right now, like, when I did my Master's 20 years ago on using literacy to support social emotional development, right, like, so how do we use books to build empathy and foster skills? At that time, I was like, the only person doing it one. And two, it was really hard to find books like Trudy Ludwig was kind of like a, you know, game changer in that space. But I think when people think about graphic novels and picture books, they instantly go to the Marvel Universe to that space. And I think part of the challenge then becomes is some parents are like, that's violent. That's right. But not that they don't appreciate that space, as adults even necessary themselves, and might be like, yeah, I really enjoy that. But I think part of the association is that that genre, this genre is all about fighting about superheroes, right? Like, there's a very stereotypical thought process, I think, is part of why maybe modern parents are a little bit apprehensive about what actually is available out there.

12:20

Yeah, and I think that's, so part of that speaks back to the lack of a being acquainted with what's out there, and how much has changed and what sort of things their kids are attracted to when it comes to graphic novels. And also, at least in the States, we've got this holdover from like, the 50s, when comic books were on trial, and they were seen as like, delivering either communist ideology or like, actually rotting kids brains, you know, right. And I think we've got some of this cultural holdover. It's sort of like, embedded this this prejudice against them as a form. So yeah, for sure. But, you know, I really, I really challenge anyone who's still resistant to it to go out there and really, you know, get a sense of what's out there to pick up a graphic novel, like new kid or something, you know, I'm studying right now. Yeah, you read that thing. You look at it, and you, you suddenly understand why this story is so much more powerful, and impactful and funny, and power and meaning and relatable, I think citing and relatable with Yeah, with the two languages. Yeah, it's like that, that that story would not be the same with text, it would be a fraction as rewarding and powerful.

Tara Gratto  13:57

Yeah, no, I think so. I mean, one of the things that sort of, I don't talk about my kids very often in my business, but I will say like, the the whole graphic novel genre, especially for my eldest, like, he's not super interested in social justice to have a conversation. He's read nukid, probably 12 times, at least. And the newest book, right? He got so much. That's where he was asking me questions that we could actually have conversations about. So we have tons of another book is I don't know if you know, David Robertson, sugar falls, like if we're talking about sort of learning about residential schools. Again, that book, my family has talked a ton about these kinds of things through picture books as they've grown. That book. Being a graphic novel was a game changer in his willingness, understanding, right? His ability to navigate really complicated conversations, like I liken it to picture books. Like I always talk about how picture books are ageless, right? And when I'm having really hard conversations with parents, sometimes I actually pull out a picture book and I read that because The pictures, the illustrations, along with the simplified language of that, actually is so deeply resonating on hard topics, especially when we're talking about our feelings and jealousy, right, all these kinds of things. And I and I will say like, that was my aha moment early on, is when he started to pick these up. And in the beginning, I was like, ah, we'll balance we have to balance there has to be this we, and I do to some degree, still think there needs to be some balance in in the sphere. But I way, way, way less than that department because I saw how game changing it is. I'm an analytical reader, I can read texts upon tax upon text. I'm very unusual, though. Like, I think the majority of kids and people are not text upon text people. They're more, where's the visual? How can I truly understand this? And I think the meaning conveyed is so much different, right? The difference between a text based is there's less that you can do a lot of interpretation. That may or may not be on board, whereas with some pictures, it's like, though, this is this is the conversation. We're gonna talk about anti racism. Here it is, let's have this conversation and it's between kids your age, doing things, right. I think that's something that really switched my mind as like, Oh, wow. He's having aha moments the same way. Same way. I think picture books have aha moments. Right? Why? And I think he makes that great point. Why do we Why do we when kids up like, that's one of my my biggest pet peeves. I'm like, Why do we say picture books are done? Like, why do we give grade one kids this idea that they're not big enough, strong enough, smart enough? If they have to start putting down picture books like that is like one of my biggest like, gives me like anxiety when I hear it. It's like, you need to start reading chapter books. And when I hear parents are like, I need to start reading chapter books at night. I'm like, I need balance. So okay, pictures are awesome. Right?

16:53

Yeah, a lot of schools and libraries, I go into the picture books are labeled, like everyone books, instead of having like an age designation? Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not for, you know, I think and I hope that kids will read all kinds of books, because, you know, not just stick with one or the other, like kids who are reading text based books and flourishing, and that I think that they should be taught and how to read graphic novels, and how to get something out of that. Because you know, to go back to new kid, like, saying that's a richer story, and a more rewarding and powerful and meaningful story. Because of the visual aspects, it's true. A lot of the work that I'm doing now, a lot of the books I have coming out, are hybrids. And I'm really lucky that my, my editor, my main editor, and my publisher are really up for exploring that. So I'm working on two books right now, kind of simultaneously, and they're both hybrids, they're both full of text and full of pictures, and you sort of turn the page and you never know what you're gonna get. And I decide what to draw, and what to write based on what's the most powerful language for that moment in the story, or what's, what's my goal in this moment of the story? And do I use words or pictures. And I think if we can do more stuff like that, we can have an appreciation for what these two languages do and see them as not hierarchical as one being better than the or more meaningful and more adults are more, you know, cerebral than the other. We can sort of get away from this. And it'll just be like, you know, we're gonna read this novel, because this text is novel, because it's doing this and then we're gonna read this graphic novel, and then we're gonna read a couple picture book, you know, like, Yeah, I think so down to a thing.

Tara Gratto  19:05

Yeah, I think it comes down to like reevaluating what we define as academia as academics, right? Yeah. Like, and this for me, I work quite a bit with younger kids. So for me that starts so young, right, this idea that like, we start letter so young, we start like, we had this high pressure academic. And now it's like, pushed all the way through it. It's like, we need to reevaluate that to strike a balance. Anybody who works with me like she her favorite word in the world is balance. It truly is. Right? We have to strike a better balance because one of the reasons graphic novels are considered lesser is because of the academic outcome, right? My child can't read this because they won't be successful later in life. And what you're saying is, hey, actually, there's all these layers. That's totally untrue. And now for a quick break to tell you about something special. Are you looking for a fun way to introduce emotional regulation and the importance of building tools for your feelings? Introducing the adventures of teen brain a comic picture book with a playful take on emotional regulation your child to become the superhero in their own teen brain story, they will learn how to handle the daily stress storms of life ways of keeping their emotions brain from evolving into T Rex level dyno brain and see how fun and important it is to build tools and skills for their feelings. This adventure was playfully brought to life by social emotional expert and founder of raising resilient children Tara Gratto, and Amazon Best Selling cartoonist Jerome Cabana, you can find it worldwide on Amazon or head to the show notes to Purchase your copy. Now, let's get back to the show. So I have a question for you for parents who are now starting to think, hey, there's a possibility here. So one of the things I learned in your workshop, as I was like, as I was there for two weeks, I was there because I was super curious. I was there because I'm writing my own thing. But one of the things that I learned in your workshop is how to appreciate that as someone who is is not I'm a I'm a hugely academic research base learner, that is where my brain goes, it's very hard for me to read graphic novels, I've gotten way better at it. And one of the reasons was because I took your workshop, right, I took your workshop. So what is like, a way to help some parents who? Sorry, my puppy just popped in? I love it. So what is a way that parents could? Cuz you know how you said, like, we wean people off. So I'm sure graphic novels feel very uncomfortable for some parents? Do you have a recommendation or a suggestion for something that they could do to be less uncomfortable? Or be able to, you know, see the value? I know, picking up is one way, but how could they be less, you know, apprehensive about the genre?

21:40

Well, I do really think that reading some or even just looking through some even just like dipping into some is a really, really good way. It's sort of like, you know, you know, when when you meet someone that's having has an experience that's from a totally different background than you or something, when you sort of have an experience with them, I think you often appreciate more. How limited your knowledge is, you know, and I think a lot of parents are coming at things being like, Oh, I know what I'm going to find in there. And I think if they sort of experienced that, they'll be like, Oh, wow, this is a lot more. There's a lot, there's a lot that I don't know that I've been walking around. Even unconsciously thinking I know, but having all these assumptions about something. But another thing I think that could be really rewarding is you know, if your kid is reading so many of these things, talk to them and say, you know, what about this? Do you love so much? Right? But what do you enjoy? Why do you keep coming back to this, or if they're at the store, and they just want to buy a whole, you know, you're at the bookstore on their, you know, holiday wish list or birthday, they want graphic novels, ask them what they're getting out of it. And, you know, to sort of bridge with what you were saying before? I think we need to like reevaluate, and sort of crystallized what what's important to us in terms of educating our kids, what are we trying to do? Are we trying to get them to graduate from high school with a list of books and say, I've read these books, and I can prove it to you? Or are we trying to create well rounded, empathetic, creative problem solving, you know, strong individuals, who can, you know, go out in the world with people different from them, and communicate and work with them? And, you know, flourish? Yeah, so that's a few things.

Tara Gratto  23:59

Oh, for sure. And I think that I think that's such a great point, right? is like, I like how you're like, do we want the list right? The pandemic has highlighted, like so the research right now has shown empathy, social emotional intelligence, right? Problem solving, and conflict. These are actually the most important life skills, right? These are the most these are what actually amount to success on long term trajectories, not whether you've read a list of 10,000 novels and studied certain old say, literary people, right? Those things are don't help you when you're having conflict in your in your life or have a very large business thing that you need to do right you need these other skills. So yeah, it's it's all about reevaluating. What do you want your child to see? How would you define success in education? What do you define right? What do you see that trajectory and where do you put those values? I like that comparison because I think it's super like vivid to me. I can see it I'm like so true. Great. I graduated high school and yes, I read all the books that I needed to read, and I honestly hated most of them truly dead. Right. And I don't want that for my kids, I want them to genuinely love literature, but I also want them to build empathy and understanding that their experience in this world is a singular experience. And that unless we come together as a community, we can't, you know, move forward.

25:20

So yeah, and I often I often encourage adults, parents, teachers, anyone to think about why they, you know, a lot of my work is, is about turning as many kids as possible into readers. And I think we have to teach kids all of what a book can do. And I think it helps to think about why you as an adult reach for books in your life, no matter what kind of book it is, why do you you don't know why, or why you don't, and figure out how to teach kids that. Because, you know, the kid who leaves having read all the books on that list and writing essays to show that they understood them, they might not grow up to be a reader, but the candidate is shown. And given a sort of reading experience where where they get something positive and personal from a book, and they see the value in that experience. Even if they didn't read that list of books, they're more likely to go on to be someone who's got a house full of books, like you do. Reads, and and we know I mean, the jury's definitely not out, we know people who read and who know their way around a book and can use books are better off and live more fulfilling and productive. Lives. Yeah,

Tara Gratto  26:48

yeah. And I don't think that has to be defined as one thing. I think that's what's so important. As we round out our conversation, this like, reading a text based book is only one way of reading, it's only one style of reading. So if we want to get more kids engaged in the process more, we need to be more sort of open minded about what those possibilities look like, and where it can take them. Because at the end of the day, I mean, as you said, new kid, there's like, there's so many examples. And I do want to direct people to your website, because you have the most fantastic website, there are so many resources on there, there are so many freebies, there are so many years of activity books, so kids who like to draw and want to learn how to do some comic book style draw, like you have so much that you you give back to the community, which I think is truly amazing. Because I know it's a hard space, right? There's a lot of books being banned. Right now, there's a lot of different thinking about the importance of literacy and books. So I do want to thank you for the work you're doing. Because I know it's not always rewarding in the sense of like, you know, you put yourself out there, and sometimes it's a hard wall to hit every now and again. So I do appreciate that part. And yeah, I will throw that in the show notes to make sure that everybody can have it. So where can people find you? I know you're super active on Instagram, but where can people find you? When When is this newest project hybrid project? That sounds very cool coming out?

28:12

Yeah, so I'm on just general learner.com. And then on Twitter and Instagram, Jared underscore learner, I think I'm pretty easy to find on there. And, yeah, I'm active on all that stuff. And in terms of books, I've got two graphic novels out, the second just came out. I've got some early readers, and then my first sort of genuinely hybrid sort of thing is out in May. And that's an illustrated novel in verse is what we're calling it. So that is arranged like a kid's notebook. And so he's writing poems and drawing and you're sort of looking in his private notebook. Yeah, and then I've got a chapter book out, it'll probably be out either either really late next year, or most likely, early 2024, which is a chapter book series. It's also written as a sort of diary. And it's much lighter and more fun than the than the novel in verse but that's hybrid. It's it's also a diary, where this character is making entries and switching over to drawing and then sometimes telling stories and comics and sometimes using prose. Depending on Yeah, it's

Tara Gratto  29:40

Sorry, just jumping in because I think that's that showing that in a book is going to be so amazing. Like I know I remember being in a classroom and you're like, drawing a little picture with the words underneath. We'll have a let's do a little bit of whatever suits you on that day, right journals don't have to be one thing they don't have to be all writing journals don't have to be all pictures. Do it. suits you and your needs. Right? I think that's

30:02

yeah. Yeah. And I think to just sort of, like, touch on everything, I think any parents listening to this, I, you know, it's not it's it's not their fault that they come to this stuff with these assumptions and preconceptions, they were taught that illustrations illustrated text, you know, and that's just how books were when they were most books when they were growing up than most books, they were given illustrations were there as crutches to sort of help you make sense of the text and confirm that what you were the meaning you were reading in the text was correct. You know, they were, they were, they were there to just serve that purpose. But the world of kids book has gone through, you know, a revolution, maybe many revolutions since they were kids, and the artistry and the talent and the skill, and the thought and the care that is going into the books that people are producing for kids on the creative level on the publishing level. Yeah, illustrations are not just illustrating, they're doing a lot of complex and meaningful and powerful work. Whether it's, you know, a piggy an elephant book yesterday, whether it's a young adult graphic novel, like, it's, it's a lot, the the quality has really gone through the roof. So, you know, pictures are not just there to explain what the text they're not just there to, to restate what has already been stated and

Tara Gratto  31:45

not an accessory. Yeah, there's so much more. Yeah, I love bonus. Yeah, I love how you made that, because I talked so much in my work about like, things like why you social emotional intelligence isn't something you understood, you never learned it? Right? So I'm always talking about why a lot of things are actually not parents fault. So I love that you made that connection. It's not your fault that you think this way. It's how you were taught. And I think one of the things that's behind what you're saying, when you said that, as an educator is like, Oh, they need to teach the way they change the way they teach, and teachers college too. Because when I teach parents how to read books, I'm like, you know, don't just ask those like, questions about, you know, to confirm, have them look at the picture and find something. And people will often say to me, well, they found this random thing, and like, there's nothing random. It's amazing. Celebrate that moment of that cool red thing that they saw on the shelf that we totally overlooked. Because we were so focused on the content, that they found something cool in the background, that is deeply meaningful, right? That whole, like, they see stuff there and go with it don't don't try to shape them into seeing something you want them to see. Explore the book with them find the meaning behind what they think is cool what they see, right? I think that's, and that's been a life changer for a lot of parents I work with, they're like, Oh, I never thought to look at a book that way. I never thought that I don't have to always create my own meaning, right? The kids have these, even really young kids can look at a book and have a totally different takeaway than what you think going in. You're gonna,

33:20

of course, that's part of the beauty of it, you know, I we read. So I have three daughters. One of them's brand new and she's, she's, like we read around her, but we're not really the other two we read to every night. And I mean, they something that my daughter is my oldest daughter is really into right now is an stuff that I just don't even think about, even though I make books is like the title page, after you turn open the book will often have an illustration that is seen elsewhere in the pages, like as a publishing thing, we'll often just grab an image, right? And we'll say, what's the title page? And we'll often it's like a last minute thing sometimes. And we'll we'll we'll make a decision and grab an illustration that's already done and use that on that title page. My daughter is obsessed with figuring out and finding, if that illustration is within those pages, I guess they can find, yeah, or if it's like something that they made different and why. And she says, Why did they use this one? Or why do you think they use that one? And that's just a level of getting into a book and getting something out of it. That's really amazing. I often encourage kids who want to create, to read books and pick something even at random and just say why? Why did they choose this word? Why did they put this picture here? Why did they end this chapter here and not there? Why did they pick this font? Just ask why and you dig into sort of the intensity of decision making that goes behind every little bit of a book and intentionality. But yeah, that's what I think the most rewarding things about reading with children and sort of discussing with children what they're getting out of books. And to go back to what we said before. That's encouraging them to use books as we adults use books to find something meaningful and valuable for us to take away once the book is put down.

Tara Gratto  35:33

Right? Which is like that's the goal. Right? Right. This it's part of your becomes part of who you are, right, this piece of you that you can refer to. Well, thank you so much for joining me in this conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and so many so many valuable tips and things in here. So, I will be sure to put all the details for your contact information in the show notes. Otherwise, thank you.

35:59

Thank you. This is great, and I appreciate you spreading the word and trying to you know, for the sake of kids get people's minds change.

Tara Gratto  36:09

Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe so you'll be notified when future episodes launch. For information on how to connect with me head to Tara gratto.ca. Or you can find me on Instagram at raising resilient children. Until next time, thanks again for listening to the raising resilient children podcast with Tara Gratto.

Jarrett is also the creator of the forthcoming illustrated novel in verse A Work in Progress, the forthcoming set of Nat the Cat early readers, and more. All of Jarrett’s books are published by Simon & Schuster.

In addition to writing, drawing, and visiting schools and libraries across the country, Jarrett co-founded and co-organizes the #KidsNeedBooks and #KidsNeedMentors projects. He is also the founder and operator of Jarrett Lerner’s Creator Club.

He can be found at jarrettlerner.com and on Twitter and Instagram at @Jarrett_Lerner. He lives with his wife and daughters in Massachusetts.