The Connection Between Sleep and Emotional Regulation for Parents and Children with Lily Horbatiuk

Transcript:

Note: The transcript below may not be exactly the same as the podcast because it has not been edited for accuracy

SPEAKERS

Host: Tara Gratto,

Expert Guest: Lily Horbatiuk, Lily Baby Sleep

Lily Horbatiuk  00:00

Prioritize sleep, you know, our bodies really need it to survive to replenish. That's really when their little brains and our brains are regenerating. They're storing long term memory, they're building skills. All of this stuff is really important.

Tara Gratto  00:16

Hello, and welcome. I'm Tara, the founder of Raising Resilient Children. As a longtime educator, former preschool owner and parent, I have been working with caring adults and children for over 20 years. In that time, I've been asked a lot of questions and provided a lot of support and feedback. Through this, I built a system for navigating the hard and messy parts of parenting with clear paths that will support you and your unique family's needs. My expertise is in social emotional well being and I'm a big fan of using picture books. I even wrote one to support teaching children about emotional regulation called The Adventures of Team Brain. I know there is no cookie cutter approach to parenting and the information can be overwhelming. Let's tackle some of this by having some important conversations and digging into some different topics.

Hello, I am so excited. Today I am going to be hosting Lily Horbatiuk from Lily Baby Sleep to talk about sleep and not having a one size fits all approach. I think one of the things I so love about Lily and her work is that it's not the cookie cutter. And if you've been following me here, you know that this is so so important to me, providing parents with different options and thinking, but also having framework and some sort of research and science to go behind it. So Lily, welcome. Thank you for joining me today.

Lily Horbatiuk  01:34

Tara, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be on.

Tara Gratto  01:39

Amazing. So could you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you started doing this? What led you to this place of owning this business?

Lily Horbatiuk  01:50

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Lily, I am a mom of two beautiful babies, not babies anymore.

Tara Gratto  01:57

They'll be our babies forever,

Lily Horbatiuk  01:59

They'll be my babies forever. And I'm the owner of a Lil Baby Sleep and Little Potty Plan. So I'm a pediatric sleep consultant. And I'm also a potty training consultant. And essentially what I do is I help parents navigate those big milestones, so that they're not so overwhelming, and they can be a lot easier. So whether it be sleep or potty training, I'm there to help and and that's really what my mission is

Tara Gratto  02:28

Amazing. And those are two huge things, right? They're two huge things. As you know, I owned a preschool for seven and a half years sleep, potty training and food, right those are the  big topics. And then of course, you layer in feelings to all of that. And then you have what I do. So one of the things I want to start with right off the bat is, as I said in the intro, we, you don't have a one size fits all approach, right? You have a different way of doing things, which is I'm going to say is not common. And what I see out there on the internet. So I'd love to know what that means, and how you, why you came to be doing it that way.

Lily Horbatiuk  03:07

Yes, so I have a really big belief that our kids, our children are all different. They're all unique. All the families that I work with are different. They have different things that are important to them. Their babies have different temperaments. And so I really feel like everything that has to do with sleep has to be customized to them, it has to be for their family, for their needs, for their baby.

And so a lot of people asked me, you know, do you have an online course or you know, something that I can follow? And to me, I really just want to get in there and find out more about your little one, and really customize it. So I have an online program that really offers more support, so that we can make sure that we are following up, that we are making tweaks, that we are adjusting to your baby, adjusting to your comfort level. There are so many things that affect sleep, that it's really hard to do anything or give good advice if it's just like cookie cutter. I really do believe that every child is different. And it's more of coaching parents, and having that framework, like you do to manage all of these situations, but also be flexible and understand sleep. Because I think once we understand sleep, we can become so much more confident with what to do and how to approach it. But having those tools is so important to me.

Tara Gratto  04:40

Yeah. And I think that's so important to highlight, right? If we don't have information, it's very hard to make decisions. And that's the same thing I teach. I'm the same as you. I don't just have a digital course that sits out there. I have a community where I go live because as you said, the framework is there. The research is there. The science is there. We need to learn that stuff. So it's kind of in the course.

But it's this, it's how do you implement it with your family? How do you understand your child? How does it apply to you and your child, and I think that's something else that will be a great sort of conversation for us is, this isn't just about your child. We don't like to admit that part, right? We're like, I need to fix my child, I need to do something. But really, it's, we have to help each other. Parent relationships are about supporting yourself and your children. Right? Both of you need actionable tools and skills, both of you need, right. So sometimes you sort of like try what I call Band Aid solutions, right? Where we try to fix one thing, but actually, there's like, some layers there, maybe stitches are required. I think that's what's so so important about what you do, it's like isn't just about your child's sleep, it's also about your sleep, right?

So, let's do like science level stuff. How many hours of sleep by age and stage is needed? From the little people up to the big people like us?

Lily Horbatiuk  06:06

You are gonna be surprised at how much sleep we actually need. Our bodies actually need quite a bit of sleep. So when we're looking at like zero to three months, we're actually looking at up to 18 hours of sleep. So most of the day, newborns need a lot of sleep very little awake time. Newborns need that. As they start to get older and their sleep cycles mature, our day sleep needs go down. So we're looking, you know, between four and 11 months, we're looking at 12 to 15 hours in a 24 hour period, right. So that's your 12 hours at night. Your complimentary naps. When you know, once you hit toddlerhood, we're still looking at 11 to 14 hours, you know, again, your naps will adjust to keep your night's sleep solid. And then, you know, for our preschoolers, we're looking at like 10 to 13 hours asleep.

And for parents, I'm always saying seven to nine hours of sleep. And that doesn't mean fall asleep. That means like, give the opportunity for sleep. So, you know, always give yourself eight hours to be in bed. Because that's what our bodies need. And a lot of parents, you know, maybe might think my little one has very low sleep needs. And it's often not the case often the case is that they're getting too little sleep, tired or overtired during the day getting too many naps. And so it's very rare, actually, the percentage is very low, have lower sleep needs babies. So it happens, but very rarely. And so there's usually things to uncover under their route and why it's so important to have that discussion with parents. Yeah, for

Tara Gratto  07:49

sure. That layer, right? I see that a ton in my work too, right? Because media messages, right. And it's really important to recognize that there is different needs out there. But because the percentages aren't shared in those messaging, right. And I talked about this in a podcast on marketing and parenting advice, right? How like, there's like the tip, a quick little message that's missing all the nuance. This is the type of nuance, right? We're like, oh, maybe my child is and maybe they are. But if you don't talk to somebody who knows and understands the science, who's worked with families who's, right, you can't actually definitively answer that question. So you'll be left in limbo, probably increasing your parent guilt in the process, wondering if that's the case, right. So I think that's what's really important to share, that part of working with people who are experts in their fields, is that piece. Is my child part of that, because if they are, then we need to, we need to give you a different set of resources and redirect you to a different type of help, whether that's behavior or food or sleep, right. That applies across the board. But if you just try to like - that post said this, so therefore, this is my child, that's where we start to, like, spin out quite a bit. Right. So I think that's,thank you for like, you know, making that connection about like, the percentages are low. And it's the same with food. And the same is true across the board.

So sleep, as you've already said, is super important. And I talk about it all the time, it's one of my big four. Sleep is one of the things that you have to have to show up to emotionally regulate, regardless of your age or stage, whether you're two or 200. I mean, we don't live till 200. But you know, what I'm trying to say is, it's one of my big four movement, sleep stimulation, right?

So what happens when we don't get enough sleep? Like what does that look like? For people for children?

Lily Horbatiuk  09:38

Yeah, so our bodies just are really good at defending themselves. And so if you're not getting enough sleep

Tara Gratto  09:46

Dino Brain

Lily Horbatiuk  09:50

Frankly, this is why it's so important to understand this is that our bodies go into that fight or flight, right? They're not getting sleep, they're going to react and risk and sometimes you would think, okay, maybe it's a meltdown. But sometimes it's just, you know, feeling a lot of extra energy. Right. And so little ones, oftentimes, if they're not getting enough sleep, you're gonna see behavioral changes, you're gonna see mood affected, just like any, any one of us, you're gonna see your immune system affected, lots more sickness, all of this stuff, because our bodies sleep is that one of the main needs of our bodies. Yeah, eating and sleep. And sometimes sleep is important. As important as having you're dinner. So sometimes we, as a society, kind of push it aside and be like, oh, you know, I'd rather just, you know, do something else than prioritize sleep. And you know, our bodies really need it to survive, to replenish. That's really when their little brains are, our brains are regenerating, they are storing long term memory, they're building skills, all of this stuff is really important. And so, you know, especially as your little one grows, their brains are, you know, growing at a fast speed, and we need to help them retain those skills. And sleep is going to do that. So that's why I'm so passionate about sleep, because I think it's just essential, essential. Yeah,

Tara Gratto  11:19

no, I agree with you. And it's interesting, the reason I like DINO-brained out there. So if you haven't been following me for a while, or you're new to my space, I wrote a picture book called The Adventures of Team Brain. And it's about fight flight and freeze. It's about helping people understand how emotional regulation works, your thinking brain, your body, brain, your emotions, brain, what happens, and how we need to be present to be able to work through tools and skills. And that's why sleep is one of my big four, because in order for Team Brain to function, right, and it's a really playful take. I had a comic book illustrator work with me on the project. And kids love it. And little spoiler alert, it's very helpful for adults too. But it's really important to understand how this is like a part of your life, right? Understanding emotional regulation, the ability to show up in our daily lives, right? When kids have big feelings, it's overwhelming for us, it's overwhelming for them. And one of the key factors that helps them build skills for emotional regulation. So all those things, the unwanted behaviors and things that you're not enjoying, potentially about your parenting, if they're not getting enough sleep, and we have a chronically sleep deprived children right now, like it's, it's considered a serious concern in the world. Right now, the percentages are quite high of sleep deprivation.

And I get it. I am a also a parent. I have preteens and teens now, so they are busy. We live busy lives. And when we have to juggle work and daycare and all the things, one of the things we do and Lily and I have talked about this a number of times is we prioritize quantity time instead of quality time, because are we actually need more sleep than potentially our day allows. So if you listen to those, those numbers, right, like if you're like preschooler 14 I think it was 14 hours you said or 13 hours. Yeah, that's more than half the day. Right? That's more than half of 24 hours. And then you put in your workday, your school day, your dinner, your breakfast, your right, that doesn't leave a lot of time. So we are regularly pushing sleep boundaries, right? Because we're worried about spending time. And I know Lily and I are huge advocates for it doesn't have to be ton of time, it has to be quality time that you spend with your children. Yeah, that's intentional time, right.

So one of the parent guilt boxes I want you to check off is if I spending time with my children doesn't have to be an hour, it could be five or 10 minutes, as long as it's the quality kind. Versus I'm going to do the thing that's going to push us to the extreme, which is gonna make me grumpy them grumpy. And we all know that bedtime is probably the least favorite time in the day for a lot of families, because there's a lot of pushback. And that's where our parent guilt goes into overdrive. Because we just don't know, we don't know if our children had a bad day, or they're just overtired. Right. And I call that creating the baseline, this idea that we need to be able to answer those in order to be able to successfully be like, Oh, we have a very clear sleep routine. And now, today, we're acting off Oh, that tells me something is off, versus everyday is off. So we can't really tell we don't we can't use our parent clues because we're like, I really don't know. And one of those things is you got to have a great sleep routine, to be able to say, Oh, this is different than usual, versus this is the usual right. So as you said it affects children and adults. You are affected by this too. So your ability to show up as a parent is affected by your sleep.

This is something I dug into when I did my stress podcast right. I was too present in my business, too present on social media, I did a bunch of research on even me putting my screen down. So I now charge my phone across the room from me, it's my only phone. So I need my parents to be able to call me in the middle of the night. So I can't charge it in another space in the house. But I've been really intentional about sharing that with my with my kids, for example, because of this, and like I was looking at my phone before going to sleep. And that's not going to be helpful for my sleep. And I'm also not modeling something for them and I'm like, my kids aren't allowed to have stuff in the room. Why do I have different rules? And I was getting sleep deprived is why I'm sharing this. And that's part of that sort of, how are we managing our parent overwhelm? Are we doing the things that get us, you know, enough sleep, too? Or are we applying different rules to our kids than to ourselves? Because they're watching? I know, everybody says that, right? And you're like, that's too much pressure. It is a lot of pressure, but it's the truth. Our kids are watching us and what we do, and they will question you, I'm not going to be the person who's like, they can handle it, no. When they're like six plus, they'll be like, Why do you have different rules than me about these things that you say are super important, like mental health and sleep right about other things? There are definitely parent rules and Kid rules 100%. But about something like this, it's very mixed messaging when you're doing something your kids aren't allowed to do. And the reason why, right? The reason why.

So one of the biggest questions I get asked, and it's one that I don't always have a great answer to. I mean, I transitioned lots of kids because of my preschool. But the bigger sort of question is nap transitions. Right? So once we get the solid nighttime thing happening, the nap changes, right? That's one of the things that happens. When and I think this goes great with your previous comment about like, sometimes there's like that 1% 2% Right. So kids drop naps too soon, for example, because they have a little bit of nap push back. When should parents expect naps to change? How do they know? What's the age range? Like? What are some things that we can sort of give us concrete or more concrete examples of what to expect in a nap transition?

Lily Horbatiuk  17:08

Yeah. So if you're, if your child is getting ready to drop a nap, you're going to notice because what's gonna happen is that if you have a good solid 12 hours, it's going to start to eat out of that 12 hours. So your body is going to get what it needs in a 24 hour period. So when we start to see that our little ones are waking up early, taking a long time at bedtime, all of that stuff tells me that there's some changes happening in your daytime sleep. And so what could be happening is that your daytime sleep is too much. And so it's just starting to eat into your nights. And what we want to do is keep our nights solid, and our naps complimentary. So that's typically early mornings trouble at bedtime if they start to skip their nap. But I would say more than over a week, because there are times when developmentally they're going through a lot of changes. And nap strikes are normal, especially around the 12 month mark. So I would definitely keep consistent. But if you're starting to notice all that, then it's time to consider dropping a little bit of your day sleep to keep your nights because we never want to sacrifice our 12 hours at night for naps. They're not as restorative as your night's sleep, they're great. But it's not going to I shouldn't be replacing your nights. So are their bodies are going to tell you. And also if you start to see naps are getting shorter, and you're just struggling with your day sleep in general, then it's a sign. Okay, let's take a look at day sleep. And it's typically just about either dropping an app by 15 minutes, dropping an app altogether, or, you know, making a little bit of adjustments in your wake windows, and also in your daytime sleep to make sure that your nights stay solid. So there's some key ages where this happens, typically around eight months is when we start to see us drop from three to two naps. Sometimes it's a little bit earlier, but around seven, eight months, and then around 18 months is when we start to notice that our little ones go from two to one nap. And oftentimes at daycare they might transition to into one that happens often. And our little ones just can't handle that much awake time. Right? They have to be able to handle five hours a week. And that's a lot. And so if they transition too early, it could cause them to get overtired, their little bodies are are going into fight or flight and then you're going to start to get early mornings. So really it's important to know when to transition and when to keep offering the nap.

Tara Gratto  19:48

Right? And I think you make  a couple points that are super important. And I see this in daycare all the time. We try to rush things because they we want our child to be in the other room because we think it's more stimuli I think are more. But I think the message we're trying to share is like sleep is maybe one of the most important things at this developmental stage. And one of the things that might be happening and I saw this all the time was, your whole life will be very tricky if they're not getting their sleep needs met, because we sort of pushed them before they were ready to do that. And there's lots of logistical reasons I understand. There's lots of reasons why in the daycare environment, they shift things, but it's really being aware of being okay with also being like, No, it's okay, my child doesn't need to move yet because they're not ready. Doesn't make them less intelligent. This is like my big messaging for 2023 doesn't make them less intelligent, it doesn't make them not developmentally, like, doesn't mean it just means I need sleep. And that's okay, that's okay. They will get the other pieces when they're ready for the other pieces in the daycare environment. So I think there's a really important piece. The other piece I want to really ask you about, because this is something that's I think, related, because one of the things you said is kind of like counterintuitive, and it's this idea, like when your kid gets up early, people will, like put their bed later, right. We like put our bed kids to bed later thinking that will help them sleep in. And I think that's what happens is a part of the dropping the nappy, like will drop the nap. But first we'll try keeping them up. So they have the nap. And they're still waking up early. But it's almost counterintuitive, right? This idea like it's so you can you can put your child to bed early to make sure you're getting that long sleep. It doesn't mean they're going to wake up at four.

Lily Horbatiuk  21:27

Yeah, I think that's a big misconception too, as most parents are like, Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to push them later so that they can wake up later. And that's actually the opposite. Our bodies are just going to go into that fight or flight. They're going to MIT stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline. And those hormones keep our bodies awake. And so what happens is that when melatonin starts to drop in the early morning hours are cortisol will shoot up. And so that's why you see, like 5am wake ups and baby having such a hard time putting themselves back to sleep is because there's an imbalance there. And that's often caused by being awake too late. So it all is interrelated. And very count. It sounds very counterintuitive, but it really does. Yeah, you do a bad time, the more chance that they're going to sleep in later. General.

Tara Gratto  22:17

Yeah. And I know like, I mean, I've had this conversation so many times, because part of my role when I owned my preschool was getting kids ready for JK, right, which is a non napping environment, in most most spaces. And one of the things that would happen there is like, parents would actually have to adopt a routine of like, pickup eat dinner, like bath, whatever and bed, right? And there's that quality-quantity sort of time push that was happening of like, well, I don't want to put my child to bed at 630 I'm gonna miss time with them. And that's just too early, they're gonna wake up early. So there's a bit of a like, as you were just saying, there's actually some science that's like, it's okay. I know, it's sort of hurts our parent hearts, right? We're like, No, I want to spend time, but putting them to bed early doesn't mean that they're going to wake up earlier. Right? I think that's the biggest myth that has to be busted is make sure you pull in some quality cloth. I can speak some quality time, but don't be afraid of that early bed window. That's,

Lily Horbatiuk  23:18

especially during nap transitions, right. And what often happens is when you're dropping that last nap, it can become very hard because your little one is gonna get tired. And so if you're gonna wait to like a seven o'clock bedtime, they're not going to make it and what happens is you're gonna go backwards, you're gonna then add the nap again. And then they're gonna have a later bedtime. And so it's about not having the nap, but pushing your bedtime early to kind of just make it a little bit easier of a transition. And then once they get used to that we can start pushing the bedtime later. So it's not forever. Yeah, yeah, it's a temporary thing. And I know it's not always the, you know, the option that most parents want. But yeah, I promise you, you're gonna get much better quality time than then melting down and waking up early.

Tara Gratto  24:08

Right. And we I mean, we expect a lot of kids right there days, especially if you have a child with a daycare. Their days are I know that I know the ideas while they're playing and they're having a good time. That is their work that is like they are very, very tired from it. It is very hard to regulate your feelings in a space with other children to share and give and take. And those are actually really emotionally taxing things. So when they get home, they're mostly tired and physically tired. And if we keep pushing them, they become chronically overtired, which means any emotional regulation we ask them to do, they actually can't we're actually asking them for something that is impossible. Which is also true of us. We also can't when we are sleep deprived and pushing and you always hear about this, right like parents who do like I forgot, I think there's a name for it. I don't know if you know it is where you watch stuffs. Do believe there's a term for it? When you say, Well, will you stay up super late? Because you're trying to get your, your your alone time? Oh, self care. Oh no, for sure that's what the actual term though but there's actually like a like rage where you're angry and you stay up till like really late at night. Oh, I have to look it up and put it in the show notes. So it's where you as a parent, your child is going to bed too late. And then as a result, you're going to bed too late because you're trying to get your personal self care time and you push your own sleep, I'm guilty of this, push your own sleep boundaries past your sleep window, because you wanted that one hour versus saying, Okay, I'm going to put my child to bed early so that I can have my time and still get to my bed and time. I have to look that up. Now I'm going to be like,

Lily Horbatiuk  25:48

now. Go back and take a look.

Tara Gratto  25:51

Period. Yeah, I know. It's a thing. Like, as you said, it is self care and should be prioritized when we put a system in place. But there is a there's like a phenomena where it happens is I think it's called like rage. Yeah, I will look it up. It'll be in the show notes. Or regardless of what you do, we're all busy. And we all need time to ourselves. So if you're pushing and you're having an hour and a half, two hour bedtime. First of all, you're not alone. If that's the case, we need to change that. So you gotta give Lilly a call. Because it's very common, I hear it very commonly. But at the end of that you're emotionally depleted from trying to co regulate, you've probably lost your cool more than once, which you're now feeling guilty about. We can change all those things. So, Lily, where can people find you? How do you you've already explained how you work with people, that it's not just like, here's a course go do it. You actually work with people and you have a team as well. So where can people find you? How can they find you, if they want to start working with you? And all of this will be in the show notes for people who are currently on the go because I know a lot of people listen to the podcast on the go.

Lily Horbatiuk  26:53

Yeah, so I am really easy to find on Instagram at little baby sleep and little potty plan. I'm pretty much you can DM me anytime there I host free workshops. I have a ton of free resources for you. So you can find me on Instagram. Best way.

Tara Gratto  27:12

Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you joined me for this conversation.

Lily Horbatiuk  27:15

Oh, it's been so fun. Thank you so much. It's, I can't wait to do it again.

Tara Gratto  27:21

All right, I didn't want to leave you hanging like that. So I wanted to come back after the recording to let you know about that term. It's called Revenge bedtime procrastination, where we as adults push our own sleep limits because we're trying to find time for ourselves. And we're doing things way late because our children are going to bed later than we would have liked. And therefore we push our sleep boundaries. So it's called Revenge, bedtime, procrastination. There's all kinds of research about it. But I didn't want to just leave you out there. So that's what it's called. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss future episodes. You can also submit questions or comments to me at Tara gratto.ca forward slash podcast. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, have a great one.

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